Thanks to a connection of Wayne’s, he & I got to talk to a long-time ResidenSea resident this afternoon, and I now know enormously more about the challenges of operating a condo cruise ship. Fascinating!
The challenges are daunting. ResidenSea, where the condo fees are like $200K/unit/year for the smaller units, is barely able to handle the logistical issues of traveling constantly, all over the world. Having to deal with resupply and customs and immigration and port fees and staffing and bringing in timeshare guests when you only spend a few days in each port and don’t come back for years is just a nightmare. Think of the difference between a cruise ship on a fixed loop, which gets its food in the exact same US port every 1-2 weeks, probably a central distributor for the cruise company that owns it, vs. a ship that resupplies in a different city in a different country every week! (If you are hungry for more details, I will eventually be publicly posting the bizplan/research document I am developing, which will include them).
The issues reminded me of Jim Rogers’ book Adventure Capitalist, which James & I were recently given – he faced many similar logistical issues in his 2-year trip by car around the world.
On the plus side, the challenges do not apply to seastead cities which stay in a fairly fixed location, and there are ways to mitigate them for a condo cruise ship, although they make it less appealing to residents. Specifically, if we travel in fixed loops, even fairly large ones (like spending half the year in northern hemisphere & half the year in southern), so that we deal with the same 10-20 ports every year, we can build up local relationships and knowledge that will significantly reduce these problems. Or we can use a different strategy than “residential ship traveling the world” – like following a small loop (SoCal -> Mexico), or simply sitting offshore, as Carl Palsson and Wayne have suggested.
Lots more research to be done before we can recommend or price out a strategy, but this has been a big leap forward in my knowledge!
I believe that our first SeaStead should be a small, humble (but reliable) used cruise ship that spends most of its time inching along at sea – just outside of the territories of the US and the Bahamas. This strategy would offer the advantages of limiting fuel consumption, providing maximum sovereignty, and avoiding immigration/docking hassles.
It would be best if the ship were accessible by helicopter if not only by shuttle (seaboat?). If it were to travel along the east coast (but outside of any territory) in an annual cycle (NY to the Bahamas), it would be accessible to individuals nearest that point for that time of year. Timeshares could be distributed accordingly, because the annual route would be known in advance.
If the price of the vessel is low enough, TSI could purchase it with commitments from aficionados alone, who could sublet thier cabins. TSI could assist them in placing a multitude of interested parties who each wish to secure a cabin or two for one or more weekly segments. In doing so, TSI would itself have sufficient commitments at all levels to secure the vessel.
Also, as I understand SOLAS, it does not apply to a condo or timeshare that is not used commercially, so costly SOLAS refurbishments would not be necessary. Thus, a cheaper noncompliant cruise ship could be purchased instead. Cruise ships are commercial, timeshares are not.
Any idea of the itemized costs to convert said cargo vessel to said specs? How many occupants will the vessel accommodate at one time in its current configuration? How seaworthy is it now? How large a crew would be required for maximum occupancy in its current configuration? How spartan are the living quarters?
Hi Katzpaw! Good to have you here, and very glad you decided to speak up 🙂
Do you happen to have any pointers to conversion or running costs for these ships? I spent a while looking, but found nothing concrete, and I think that’s an important first step for the cost model (from which one could then pick a size/price).
I’ve been imagining that cargo hold or car deck conversions would be manageable, but I hadn’t considered the idea of adding extra decks on top of an existing hull. Again, do you have any example costs for such things? Am I correct in imagining that they’d be significantly more expensive than interior refits of cargo space?
m.
To answer the questions posed by JLMadrigal and dichro, here is a limited cost estimation and other supporting rambling:)
This is really, really interesting .The thing that grabs me about this ship is that there’s a hectare of deck space on top. I’d be very, very curious to know the dimensions of the holds. If they give another two hectares when converted to 12ft floors, you could have 500 people resident with 40m2 below decks per person – or, more likely, 80m2 per couple. That’s not too bad by modern apartment standards, and it leaves the whole top deck free as a communal area.
Actually, what I find most exciting about this is that anything built in the holds doesn’t need to be seaworthy. It needs to be structurally sound instead, and that’s a *much* easier problem – one that’s probably accessible to non-specialists. If you deal with ventilation (maybe by ducting through the sides of the hold?) you could roll the hatch covers closed in weather and never expose the essential infrastructure to the waves.
Not meaning to tweak the noses of the high-road/low-road people, but this strikes me as a fantastic point midway between the two. It’s reliable infrastructure to protect people from the elements, freedom to build living areas to taste, whether by hand or not, and a huge amount of space for crazy sea-colonization experiments on top.
What is most appealing is the ability to convert such a freighter into a SeaStead in sections. This would allow incremental development, and provide multiple opportunities for categorized investments. The vessel could be leased out by TSI in segments, and the developers could be given a great deal of latitude regarding design, use, and governance. Such an approach might even make a barge-based FreedomShip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Ship) doable under the same modular master lease.
And the more shipyard functions that could be brought aboard and accomplished at sea, the greater and sooner independence can be achieved.
Constructing the added on decks in sections should be entirely feasable and a cost reduction in initial costs. Norwegian Dream and Wind both had 110 ft sections added into the center of the ships. It’s a good way to increase length while still using the same main propulsion and power systems with out needing to upgrade, and still keep near the same speeds as prior to the retrofit. This is what gave me the idea of adding superstructure in increaments. They could be built on land and just craned onto the ship and fitted out. Although this would mean needing to go into a port to have this done.
As for building fitting out the holds ourselves, I just feel that is better left to the shipyards that have the eqiupment and knowledge of how to do it right the first time. When I need something done, I hire a specialist. This would be one of those times. It doesn’t mean we couldn’t do some of the work, I just think the structural changes should be done in a credible shipyard under the supervision of a maritime project management company. Also, somewheres in my reading of the forums, someone mentioned the ability of not have to fit a ship to SOLAS standards do to it not being a cruise ship. I think that is a mistake. Being ex-Navy, I can tell you some of the first things you learn in boot camp is basic damage control and basic fire fighting. Before I stepped on my assigned ship I was sent for advance damage control and advanced fire fighting classes. If you want to live on the sea, these are two things I think every Sea Stead should have at least basic training in as well as a group of volunteer specialist, not unlike the volunteer fire fighters in our home towns on land that can be called in a moments notice….because at sea, you have no place to go, and 911 is not going to be helpful.
One of my thoughts is having a barge or small floating dock moored outboard as a building/ testing area for ideas presented in these forums. Real conditions at an actual Sea Stead site, which could also be part of a floating marina/boat repair station.
Cheers,
Katz
I don’t know enough to agree or disagree with the idea but I think the idea of ‘doing it ourselves’ comes from the fact that the interior holds of these cargo ships were designed for supporting the weight of anything you decide to put in there. Therefore, you could build structures inside using traditional land-based methods as long as they support their own weight and are designed for more strict fireproofing guidelines. I imagine a shipyard would build out of welded steel plates and sealable bulkheads, in addition to charging the prices that anyone called ‘expert’ can command.
There are other factors to consider, such as much greater movement in the supports than mere foundation settling in a new house on land. These cargo ships are desiged with the same capacity not to sink, so it would be similar to transporting prefabricated houses from one port to another, except more elaborate and well secured. It wouldn’t be as efficient as building a cruise ship from scratch but as a used vessel at reduced cost, it’s efficient for the conditions at hand.
I guess my concern with what has been said so far is that the cost and occupancy seems to be similar to that of the ClubStead design, except for the added conversion costs, maintenance costs, and the fact that it’s a retrofit of a ship instead of a purpose-built design. Being able to delay the costs with an incremental build-out helps, but the added upkeep expenses could actually end up delaying later stages of the refit as the money starts flowing down that hole in the ocean.
I actually called their main office in Miami when the “World” was in Charleston, to get on board, or to talk to the folks about it, but, didn’t get to talk to them… I think they would do an on phone.. But, I had a nice chance to photograph “The World” when she was in port.
David Walen
Attempting to Leave Living Footprints
http://tribes.tribe.net/acce
Hello Katzpaw and all!
I too have been a lurker for months! i actually had an account get erased too!
First off, I don’t want to sabotage this thread, but, I just can’t resist tying it into the subject of my current studies: Salvaging ships as a raft, moving from the rafted form, into a on-sea dry dock system, into a fabricated network of specialized floating islands!
Basically, I have been researching the James River “Ghost Fleet” and have been dreaming and scheming along the lines of how and what to do with such large amounts of metal and concrete (and asbestos, mercury, pcbs, etc).
This has gotten me interviewed by the AIA (American Institute of Architects) for their “Futurism” issue in 2008.
Last week I met with a Capt Jim, that used to salvage some of these very ships! And he liked my idea.
I will be adding much more soon!
My first question for you all is: Rafting Ships together, and forming floating networks within, and around these: What ya’ think?
David Walen
Attempting to Leave Living Footprints
http://tribes.tribe.net/acce
Hello David and welcome!
That’s an interesting idea you have brought to light. Out of curiosity I pulled up PMARS to see what was still left in the current fleet at James River.
http://www.pmars.imsg.com/default.asp
I was thinking that you would need ships of similar build and vintage to make this work, and low and behold there is a whole string of Cimmeron Class Replenishment Oilers in mothballs awaiting disposal. While this is a good idea in my opinion, it would not work for a group that wants out from under the American Flag as the US Military and Coast Guard can board US Flagged vessels, anytime, anywhere. Unless those ships are donated to a Foreign Country by Congress, they can not leave the US Flag, unfortunately. There are several ships in the Suisun Bay fleet that would be perfect for Sea Stead conversion, if it were not for the re-flagging issue. Personally, I’ve wondered if it would be possible to take 2 hulls like that and mate them into a catamaran design and add superstructure in the center….Now that would turn some heads.
Cheers,
Katz
I guess my concern with what has been said so far is that the cost and occupancy seems to be similar to that of the ClubStead design, except for the added conversion costs, maintenance costs
I will be terribly disappointed if this turns out to be true. Unfortunately, we have little in the way of hard numbers. The only thing that’s obvious is that we can have raw steel deck, exposed to the elements, on a sea-worthy and structurally sound vessel, for $60-$65 per square foot. That’s ignoring the holds altogether. I don’t recall what the final Clubstead price was – $300-$400 per square foot including all costs? – but there’s a lot of cost headroom there to build things.
But, frankly, I’m still optimistic that it should be easier and cheaper to build inside the holds anyway, although I’m open to suggestions as to how one might go about determining a price range.
When I was working on my prefab home venture, these guys priced the custom buildout of two 40 x 9 containers with bedrooms, a kitchen, and living space. There qoute was around $70,000. That’s $97 psf. ($70,000 / (2 x 40 x 9)). This includes mechanical and electrical
http://www.containerhouse.com/index.htm
As the website shows, most of their work is for offshore oil and gas facilities.
And, they were very open and enthusiastic about my quirky project. Good folks.
Hope this is useful.